WEBMINING> Offset Offensive from Toronto

Man. I’m not quite sure what to say. I was forwarded this link from a friend of mine, who basically said, “dude, you gotta read this. This article bashes slammed cars, negative offset, and the usage of roof racks and rusted body parts. It even bashes websites that promote that style (specifically naming HellaFlush), Miata.net and other forums.”

At first, I thought, “That sucks, but whatever… people talk shit on the internet all the time just to spike up their traffic or make a name for themselves.” But then I re-read the email. It talks shit about Corollas?! More specifically, it refers to our beloved AE86 Corollas (other cars are on the list too) as “irredeemable garbage.” Wow. That’s a pretty bold statement.

For most of the people I’ve been hanging out with for the past 10 years, talking shit about a person’s car is worse than talking shit about a person’s family. In many circles, those are fighting words. While I like to think that I’ve grown up a bit, and I like to think it doesn’t bother me when people disparage the cars I have been passionate about for the past decade… I think, perhaps, I haven’t grown up. I sure haven’t “grown out of it” – I haven’t grown out of my passion for AE86s; for negative offset wheels; for demon camber; for low stanced cars; for stretched tires… hell no. If anything, I’ve become happy that people are embracing this style, and seeing people all over the world build cars of this type is only adding fuel to the fire.

Perhaps the most offensive statement made by this article is the one that belittles the young demographic of car enthusiasts. It says “Setting up a car for drifting is usually ass-backwards to what actually makes a car handle. Still, it has managed to permeate the collective consciousness of young car enthusiasts, who are unaware that buying coilovers with absurdly stiff springs doesn’t actually make a car handle well, but rather masks a the deficiencies of a poorly designed car.” Come on now. Young car enthusiasts are unaware of what they’re doing? Last time I checked, MOST people (note that I didn’t say ALL, but MOST) involved with drifting were modifying their cars with a purpose and a mission.

That’s enough rambling from me… post up your comments and YOUR VIEWPOINTS/OPINIONS after you read the actual article on the original website that posted it, which is apparently titled SpeedSportLife. (Here you go, if a traffic spike is what you were looking for by posting this…)

:: Antonio Alvendia


MotorMavens Readers' Blog

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45 Responses to “WEBMINING> Offset Offensive from Toronto”

  1. Lloyd Hill says:

    wow, i dont even know where to start on that blog post. his single minded approach to a mostly west coast subculture is a joke. Hes from toronto, and even as he states himself “moon like roads and snow 6 months of the year,” well obviously he has this ideal of this trend being the biggest thing. look at the past 50 years of automotive scenes, and if you go back to the roots, it all started with pissing off a WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE. These guys took cars, model T’s and other like cars, and modified them to the point of absurdity of the standards of that time. That was in the 40′s, fast forward 70 years, and its the SAME THING. People will talk, people will act hard, but at the end of the day, well see who will back it up. Yes, slamming a car to the ground will mostly destroy the ride characteristics of a well handing car, but if you correct ride geometry (which he has a halfassed view point on) then you will be amazed on that little miata on the ground keeping up with, and destroying, alot of VERY expensive cars on the track.
    Basically, this guy bashes what he doesn’t understand, he states “i have never seen one of these cars in person,” and that validates his opinion? at the end of the day, he will talk shit, but will never be able to back it up.
    there are about 1500 different points that he touched on that his opinion skews the facts.
    I think at the end of the day, he needs to do some REAL research, talk to REAL people, and actually try to see other view points, and while hes doing that, get a fucking life

    Lloyd

  2. [...] While browsing my twitter stream I noticed Motormavens had posted a link with the description 'bold article against hellaflush'. Since I'm a fan of Hellaflush (I've had the chance to write for them a couple times), naturally I became interested in what this guy had to say. After reading the article, I've got a mass of words I could say. You can read the original article here (Speed: Sport:Life) and see Motormaven's response here (Motormavens). [...]

  3. I’ve got 3 words for it.

    Haters Gonna Hate

    That is all. Everyone feel free to quote me now. in 3, 2, 1……..

  4. .: Jover :. says:

    Yo, you know Toronto’s still got mad love for the dutty dutty stylee.

    I hope Derek gets to see more of the automotive world before presenting more misguided statements that are I know is narrowly subjective and straight up wack… I know he’s entitled to say what he wants, but this time, even tho i consider him a friend, I must pledge my alligance to my beliefs…. Offset. Is. Everything.

    I have spent the last half of my life upholding these values… It took a lot of time for these values to come out into the mainstream. I feel proud when someone gets schooled and realizes the bottom line is to have fun and have a wild style while you’re at it. I love how California is a mecca for automotive expression. I only wish Derek will be able to visit and get the welcome I get every time I come down to the USA.

    You know, I kinda feel like we got slapped back into 1998 on mailing lists for very niche interests (ie Toymods where I met Antonio)… Nuff oldtimers and “Internet gurus” hating then… I guess ignorance and envy still reigns and propagates today.

    That being said, keep it real y’all! Slam your rides into the asphalt, put on badly fitting wide wheels with tires that might pop off the beads… or rep hard in your stock height Cavaliers… whatever. Just don’t perpetuate the hate.

    Peace,

    Jover

  5. hechtspeed says:

    I’ll share my views. I can honestly appreciate all car build styles. They each have their own purpose. Sometimes people try and mix up more than one style too (show and go for example). But the goal should be to have fun and try and have your own style. So, if you don’t like low and fitment, then don’t worry about it. Point it out if you want, but this guy pointed it out and then bashed, making statements that puts everyone in one box. What’s the point? What have you accomplished? You’ve just pissed people off. By bashing the “Moar Low/wrong fitment/hellaflush” crowd, you’ve actually given them the “setting themselves apart” that they’re looking for. So, you like function and speed. Ok, cool. I dig. But how many people do track days? Dude, I’d love to do track days, but its not practical or cheap and what if I crash my daily? So, since I can drift or track my ride, then what’s left is I can enjoy my car hobby by having a stylish “street” style car that puts a smile on my face and breaks some necks. :)

  6. “So, you like function and speed. Ok, cool. I dig. But how many people do track days? Dude, I’d love to do track days, but its not practical or cheap and what if I crash my daily?”

    I worked at the fair as a carny (not to mention tons of other shitty jobs) until I could afford my car and all the associated costs. If I crash it at the track, I have nothing, and insurance won’t cover me. But I want to be a great driver and I enjoy it, so I go. Even in the freezing cold while rocking snow tires.

    It’s the same thing when people complain that their roads are too shitty or their car scrapes. If you’re really about it, you do it anyways, regardless of the risks. It just depends on what your priorities are.

  7. BlueSlug says:

    as a fellow canadian, i hope this guy is just (like me) suffering from the winter blues and is simply jealous of what everyone in warmer climes has access to at the moment. just watch, in three months he’ll be all perky and delighted that spring has sprung.

    for reals though what a dick, he obviously has zero comprehension of the notion of adding a bit of style to your driving or yes, heaven forbid, purely aesthetic modifications! *GASP* i bet he hates people with nice watches or expensive shoes, too

  8. PLAGUE MURKZ says:

    i am a Suby owner and some of us get that same shit over on Nasioc aka Nazioc. “those wheels are the wrong size”, “that much camber isn’t functional” blah blah… some people need to stop being squares and learn to appreciate different styles. talking shit from behind your computer screen under an alias (s/n) is for chumps anyways. they think they are being tough guys when they do that ish but in reality they are outing themselves as the biggest chumps on the internet. thats like sucker punching someone in that back of the head and then running away. LMFAO at all those lil keyboard gangsters. e-thuggin on the internet, lol.

    meanwhile a fair amount of these people drive stock cars with stickers and vortex generators and think they have the right to judge. diversity in the car scene is one of the best things about the car scene. i love living in SoCal and being exposed to all the different styles of car culture we have here. i may not think every style i see is dope but i can appreciate certain aspects within most of the scenes… and to me a properly stanced car is a thing of beauty. i don’t look at it and say “oh he’s losing handling ability because of this or that”, or “this is too low to be funcional”, ect. i can appreciate a dope build when i see one whether its a lowrider, import, ratrod, muscle car, truck or whatever. not everyone buys a car to build up its performance ability. thats just not everyones thing and i’m glad. different styles end up influencing each other and in the end dope new ideas are born if you are open minded because you can take a little style from each scene and come up with your own individual interpretation of what you think a dope ride should look like. thats how things came to be here in SoCal and the West Coast car culture scene has influenced just about everywhere else in the world IMHO and it will continue to because we have so many fixed up cars here in Cali that you have to come with something different if you really want to stand out. some people cant appreciate that but the ones who can are the ones who are going to be coming with the next level shit because they’ll be the ones who are down to push the envelope and risk being ridiculed by others for the sake of trying something new. props to those heads… let the haters hate because the scene doesn’t need them. they aren’t doing anything that hasn’t been done. they are just doing the same ol’ thing thats been seen over and over again and they are happy with that. almost like they say “oh i like that dudes suby car so i’m gonna do mine up just like it”… WRONG, thats biting and thats wack in my book.

    y’all should use the internet to check out styles from all over the world and study them, take from them little things and come up with this global car culture instead of drawing lines and arguing over “right” and “wrong”. its gets old quick.

  9. Ignite*Soul says:

    Man, this is getting ridiculous.

    Did this hating go on in the 90′s up the mountains of Japan where people were sliding their chasers, corollas, 180′s, etc everyday? fuck no.

    Did this hating go on in Europe where the dub guys were stretching tiny tires onto fat ass wheels to evade tickets from the police? fuck no.

    why can’t people just do what they want to do to their car and enjoy it without getting bashed anymore?

  10. tps says:

    Dude is a lame.

  11. stephan says:

    you just dont hate on corollas…you just dont

  12. Mr.Cid says:

    Did I just see that Derek fella post on here?? If that is really you, here’s what I left on your article so you can see it again.

    “Great. I just wasted two minutes of my life. Now some f’in douchebag has made his highest ever reader hits, which was a good stunt btw. But since we’re all adults, you are entitled to your own opinion. Once you convince your mom to let you take the 96 Accord out and actually see a stanced car, tell that owner how you really feel. Most of these guys carry 2×4′s, hope you like splinters in your anus.”

    And I meant this in the nicest way possible. I’m not going to force you to “understand” the concept, because like every automotive trend since way back in the 30′s, there will always be the ignorant, self-righteous, misguided haters. Unfortunately for us, you idiots know what the internet is. Hooray.

  13. If you think about it, they’re sort of right.

    I mean, yeah, look at all of the awesome cars, but do we fail to forget the shitty ones? For every nice, low, kitted, flush car, I’d say there were about 20 ugly ones. Go on Zilvia, people are still buying shocks and springs! What the hell is that? And buying a “set of 17′s,” forgetting that there’s a width. I don’t know how many times I’ve asked people the size of the wheels, with a simple reply of “18′s.” And then I ask how wide, and they give me the tire size. Wow.

    That’s not to say NO ONE knows what they’re talking about. It’s always going to be divided. People who know what they’re doing, and people who don’t. Just like with most things.

    But my rant about flushness is… look at Supercars. Lambos, Ferraris, etc. Low stance, wide wheels, rad. So they must be shitty too, right? Imitation of million-dollar cars must be a crime.

    -Lucky

    And check out my blog/TE72 buildup/flush cars/coilovers/cool mods hahahaha!

    http://laurante.wordpress.com

    Holler!

  14. wolfgang says:

    im pretty sure derek is just some douche that got himself on the track a couple times and now he thinks hes some kind of expert.

  15. Yuta Akaishi says:

    oh hey.

    that’s cool.

  16. gabedm says:

    To me Antionio, this seems like a 4th grade ” Mama, he hit me” argument. Who the f cares if this guy is a moron, doesn’t understand the movement, or even talked smack about the exalted AE86. I mean seriously, who cares. This shit happens 24/7 on the net : Talking smack about Euro’s Jap cars, Drifting, Jdm, stance etc…. I mean seriously. I would hope your blog would just post more postings of worth cars or events, like you keep doing, instead of bitching back at some idiot who wants to say his stupid piece.

  17. Cornfed says:

    Wow that car is idk but wow

  18. G-zilla says:

    Derek, I already left comment at ur site.
    Now that I’ve give it a thought, you should do seasonal jobs up there in Toronto and come to our beautiful sunny beaches in Mexico while in winter. That way ya won’t get depressed!

  19. Meg says:

    Wolfgang — Actually, he’s an auto journalist. You can check that yourself, don’t just take my word for it.

    I also don’t think he was bashing Miata.net, since that’s the *good* Miata forum. I’m quite sure the comments were directed to ClubRoadster, which would fall in line more-so with “form before function” type of thing. The only forum that considers my Miata too tall, yet it’s a perfect track stance. (And yes, has been tracked. Only once, but I’m working on it.)

    I agreed with a lot of it, mostly because, to the stance lovers, track cars are totally misunderstood. I wish more people could see it and take it with a grain of salt. Do we have to get our panties in a twist over it?! Nobody’s gonna like everything. Period. There’s two sides to this thing here.

    I’m a track driver (Miata), but I love AE86′s and drifting and I appreciate the stanced cars I see. I love it more when I can compliment somebody’s stanced car, they check out my track car and they dig what I do. Someday I’m gonna get out there and drift… When my drift car starts working again. (SR20 swap 240SX.) We don’t all have to be alike, that’s what makes cars so fun. Even my two are, at times, polar opposites…

  20. loneracer-SK says:

    aahh that guy doesnt know shit of what he’s takling about. he so envious, therefore hating
    just pisses me off.

  21. D1RGE.EXE says:

    Not even gonna grace his site with a look at the article. He ddoesnt deserve the page hit for this asinine article of ignorance.

    And the car in the pic? lmfao gott DAMN thats some offset on that thing!!!

  22. stqeno says:

    In some aspects this guy is right,
    Since i deal with ae86 almost one decade i can say they are crap. You can help it in two ways, make some gokart from it or improove the suspension. Both ways are corect in they manner. Where is any suspenison travel there cannot be any problem with bumpsteer, shifted rollcentre, trailing arm angles etc…. :) I can confirm also that talk about miata suspension.

    Ok, but now seriously, even though myself i dont like to destroy the function of the car suspension i would newer hate another peoples that dont cares about handling because its they own right to do what they like and their cars are very good looking. I would newer sacrifice handling over look so i can watch hours on very good made slammed cars and admire the guys to do something i would newer had balls to do. Because there is sure lots of sacrificing there.

  23. BigSix says:

    Textbook East coast arrogance. It’s no wonder people Vancouver and people from Toronto hate each other. While I personally won’t run something that graces the pages of HellaFlush myself (my fat ass=extreme scrape, but I’ll run a bit higher than HF low), I appreciate the style of the cars, and I’m a big fan of the low-offset wheels and stretch.

    Why is this guy talking smack about something he hasn’t even seen before? Don’t knock it ’til you try it, loser.

    Car in the pic is a Suzuki Wagon-R. I’ve seen it floated around the Net a million times.

  24. PLAGUE MURKZ says:

    ^ the ae86 is most definitely NOT crap. know your history, its one of the most feared underdogs at any drift event.

    oh and i agree with D1RGE.EXE. i won’t even grace D-Bag Derek’s site with a hit and chose not to read his babblings. seems like its amateur hour in 2010 as far as most “automotive journalists” go. bunch of wannabe’s with a few talented folks in the mix…

    @Derek… stick to hockey, eh

  25. stqeno says:

    Dont wanted to offend the 86community :) in the view of modern car suspension designs even compared to miata, ae86 is no match at all. BUT we love that car, it has so much character that i can’t go away from it, who would say that from some cheap boxy E30is replacement. Despite of its archaic suspension design its so well balanced that with some small tweaks it can become real mean handling machine. (or gokart, the way you done the mods is only on you).

  26. Honestly, this guy pulled off a pretty decent troll, although that probably wasn’t the intent.

  27. Danny B. says:

    An article like this is writen when someone spends thousands of dollars to make a car look nice and handle like a dream, but at the track more people approach the ratty Miata tearing it up instead. So he gets mad that the dude that spent $2000 is having more fun than him, he who had to spend $20,000.

    And P.S,
    His article needs to be lower.

  28. brandon says:

    CAN YOU FIND AN ADDRESS WHERE THIS WAS POSTED AT THROUGH AN IP ADDRESS, IF SO LET ME KNOW, WE’LL HAVE A CHIT CHAT =)

  29. phil says:

    20bucks says i can drive my slammed/flush/stretched car faster then he can drive whatever junk he owns lol

  30. generic chase says:

    I read blogs on a similar topic, but i never visited your blog. I added it to favorites and i’ll be your constant reader.

  31. DaveT says:

    He drives a Miata, actually.

  32. PLAGUE MURKZ says:

    hahaha.. ok, i just googled this fools name and its obvious that he is an attention starved wannabe media whore who likes to talk a bunch of shit on all kinds of subjects from behind a computer screen. i wouldn’t call that journalism dude… i would just call it whining with some big words thrown in the mix. and stop claiming to be an automotive journalist man… you’re just another blogger. stop trying to self promote your self into something your not. you’re too close minded to be a real automotive jounalist and besides that your too whiney and inexperienced. i would never attempt to write and article about a certain car style that i’ve never even attempted to go see in person. what kind of “automotive journalist” would? a wannabe thats who… get out in the field and put in some real work. know about what you write about or don’t bother because you’re just going to embarass yourself again. i guess if you are an automotive journalist then your a half ass one at best if you can’t even get out from behind the computer and go see a properly stanced car in person before you start to spout off at the mouth against them. if SPEED SPORT CRY (or whatever its called) is smart they’ll tell you to kick rocks before you make them look bad again.

    GOOGLE “Derek Kreindler” FOR MORE WHINING AND DOUCHEDOM

  33. Weezy says:

    As a fellow Canadian, I am embarrassed that Derek is Canadian. He DOES NOT represent the mindset of other Canadians, especially the west coast guys. We here in Vancouver are stepping up the fitment game, along with the sport of drifting, even though the police are cracking down on Vehicle Inspections for being “too low”. Saying something is stupid because you don’t like the way it looks is ignorant. Sounds like Nazi thinking to me. Anyways, this is how we do it in the west coast.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ayHIXJyZGo

    http://fatlace.com/hellaflush/theflushness/essthirteen.html

  34. [...] that a site was taking shots at hella flush and the whole stance movement with negative remarks WEBMINING> Offset Offensive from Toronto – MotorMavens Its really the people who push shit too extreme with their cars that brings down the whole bunch [...]

  35. [...] movement: read it here. Seriously, it is an insightful read on the popular trend. Soon after MotorMavens posted the article, all hell broke [...]

  36. jeffrey says:

    check this out!!!!!! i found this dude’s blog site. Feel free to leave some HATE comments

    http://derekkreindler.blogspot.com/

  37. 86LIFE says:

    I’m not even going to look. Anyone that says a bad word about 86′s is wrong and will be punished.

  38. AWD ATTK says:

    I wonder if he listens to Beethoven whilst driving around his frozen tunrda, scoffing at the likes of The Ramones for their muscial ineptness.

  39. Tony says:

    Wow, commenters here are putting up threats of violence toward some guy they never met? This Derek person may be a little bit of a keyboard warrior, but anyone who asks for IPs or tells other people to deface this guys website is just as immature.

    For me, the whole stanced/hellaflush scene isn’t my thing, and I can see why Derek is in a bit of a tiff about it.

    Cars with mega-stretched tyres, crazy offsets and extremely low ride heights don’t appeal to me, and personally I see them as more of a fashion accessory than as performance cars. They definitely look cool, but don’t expect them to be anywhere near as quick as a similar car with less extreme mods.

    But still, as long as the owner likes the look of their car, then that’s all that matters. I wouldn’t do the same things to my Z, but that doesn’t mean I should dictate how others modify their cars or extoll “my way” of doing things as “the right way”.

    But then again this is the internet, and everyone is entitled to their opinion and is provided with the means to voice it. If you don’t like it, just ignore it.

  40. Quail says:

    Keep it mature guys, some of you are just reinforcing his views by being unable to hold down a mature debate.

    Looking at Derek’s blog, it seems he loves to complain. He’s written an article without any primary research. Let the haters hate…

  41. Nigel says:

    The “look” is taken from Japan, where I also believe it is illegal to have your car lower than a pack of Cigarettes. I like the look of 70′s and 80′s cars lowered on 14′s & 15′s. The wheel width was for traction. I also believe this is an evolution of making your car handle. Because back then 14 inch wheels were considered large.
    So I think the aim of this movement is just to make ones car better, the true aim of modification. There are many out there that just need more education. (I live in Mississuaga just west of Toronto.)

  42. JB says:

    What a complete Douche.

    His own blog sucks total ass too…
    http://blackrepublican1.blogspot.com/

  43. Billy Judkins says:

    Completely agree with Tony, this guy has a point, is it right for him to bash you guys? Sure if he does it on his own blog.

    But really, this guy probably wants to talk about performance over looks, and his statements are correct, you aren’t going to take a sti stanced on a track with 1/10 of an inch under your front lip, it’s just to look cool, not very practical in my opinion.

    But anyway, if you guys like how it looks (believe me it looks awesome,) it’s totally fine, i’d just rather lower my car 1.5 inches and not worry about every pothole i go over

  44. its ridiculous how people think california has the smoothest roads…..

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